Just look at the acknowledgements of the book. Two professors in Physics from different universities did review the book and produce sensible comments. Charles Hall, the coauthor, is an institution in EROI, that is here questioned with superficial comments. Besides, I understand that publishing a book is a free decision, that does not necessarily require peer revisions, yet despite that, we did have our work reviewed.
Perhaps what Raugei wanted to say is that the peer review was not made by the usual reviewers in an endogamis game. I have been observing that in the academic world, things are getting unfortunately tougher. Some of the technical papers have sometimes more pages of references than pages of content see more of my comments on the article below. Perhaps what disturbed Raugei about our book is that we also skipped somehow from these habits and did not leave to the usual teams a review that, with all probability, would have ended in the basket.
Of course, Raugei is right when he presumes that our case is perhaps valid for Spain and for the 4 GW installed within the period Because should we had considered Germany and its public production of solar PV systems within the same period, the Energy Return in terms of MWh per MWp installed would have been less than half of those of Spain.
I am now retired and happily growing my organic farm. Not now or since , when I left working for a telecom corporation, have I had any interest in discrediting or crediting solar PV systems. I am not making my life by publishing papers and trying to gain credibility on a given subject. I have also cooperated with projects in some Latin American and African countries and I have worked as director of Development of Alternative Energies for a listed Spanish company for a couple of years within the period.
Just a final nota bene, with additional comments on the paper Energy return on investment EROI of solar PV: an attempt at reconciliation. Volume 11 No. Also surprising is that the document is dated in December and our book was not published until the spring of Springer, in the bulky references, that occupy almost as much space as the article in itself. It appears, however, as some uncertain P. Prieto and C. This does not seem to be a very edifying example in referencing others. Some more could be found in many places.
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Energy Bulletin. June On the contrary, we were more in the low estimate in years high estimate EROI , than using worst cases. Now, for the record, it should also be very convenient for all the prolific authors on solar PV EROI to revise the figures given in papers published several years ago, to double check how are they performing Energy return statistics.
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I recall specifically in this respect the V. Fthenakis and H. I wonder if they could still support this analysis, just five years after their study and how the promising system has contributed to the grid parity worldwide, considering they recovered the energy spent on it in less than one year. Talking about the life time directly involving the Energy Return , it is very interesting to see how some papers have changed the estimated life time of solar PV Systems from 25 years to 30 years.
It is curious that virtually all manufacturers give a maximum of 25 years of power guarantee of their modules with the corresponding degradation process over the years and 5 years of material guarantee the later superseding or prevailing on the former in case of failure and we find scientists happily granting 30 years for the EROI studies. In our discussions on this topic a couple of years ago, an editor came to say that if our factors were really sine qua non indispensable for the system to be up and running and the IEA methodology did not considered them, perhaps it was the moment to change the IEA methodology.
I would just recommend the IEA tour Spain it is not the worst country in solar PV systems; on the contrary, it is one of the most efficient in terms of MWh produced per Mw installed. The IEA should come and check and double check how many solar PV plants have not lasted, for a variety of reasons, the 25 year life time of the manufacturers or the 30 years of the IEA backed by some scientists.
Just in alone about 40 MW have been dismantled, with a lifetime averaging about 5 years. Trials are the delight of reputable and expensive law firms, which earn quite a lot of money preparing lawsuits against promoters, manufacturers, banks and the government. That is real life, far beyond the academic instances.
One wonders what is the value of a technical guarantee on power, if the life time of the manufacturers becomes much shorter than the one of the power of the promised modules. Conclusion: After a couple of years from the publication, I have much more data to reaffirm for myself that we were really conservative in our 2.
But I will not publish more data. I will go back now to my organic garden and wish you all the best for what I suspect may be a grim future. Antonio Gramsci. Pedro in Madrid, without any group. Yes it is very disappointing that so much confusion and acrimony surrounds this crucial issue, and that they seem not to be moving to a resolution as quickly as they should be. There are of course big interests at stake, with the conventional high EROI assumption suiting the industry, and the theorists who have previously put out such claims.
At the very least Prieto and Hall should be commended for getting the whole messy issue of boundaries and components, and appropriate energy cost assumptions for the various components, on the agenda. Sadly the disputation over this issue illustrates the way scientists are not immune from prejudiced and nasty behaviour, a considerable amount of which my efforts to analyse renewables has evoked. As Alice notes, when large scale research funding is at stake there can be strong incentive for competitors to reinforce perspectives that suit them.
I have little respect for the entire peer review edifice, due to my unsatisfactory experience in trying to get critical analyses published. That phrase constituted the full case given for rejection.
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On another occasion, where it took over a year to get through the difficulties, I was presented with a seven page essay disagreeing with elements in my case. If that reviewer wanted to express a different view he should have done it somewhere else, not try to insist that I say what he would have said.
I have another case where possibly a c 50 word review from probably the most prestigious individual in the field said the paper was good, but the paper was rejected because a second even shorter review was unfavourable. The reasons were so unintelligible that I had to ask what they meant. I see the process as far too prone to the whims, prejudices and in fact arrogance of reviewers and editors. They should get out of the way and let people say what they have found or think, and focus only on things like pointing out mistakes or pointing to overlooked evidence or assumptions, or logical errors.
Their role should be to help get ideas and analyses out to others, and to block only as a last resort. I have written reviews in which I say I think the argument is wrong and the procedure not satisfactory but I think the paper should be published, because I could be mistaken and the paper does present a case that it is important for us to think about.
I would assume that most of us have had papers rejected by one set of reviewers but regarded highly by those from another journal. I have no interest in whether or not it was peer reviewed; what matters is whether or not the case it argues is sound, or valuable, or ought to be heard.
Nuria Masso Ortigosa - AbeBooks
Theses that are dead wrong can turn out to be valuable contributions, by helping subsequent discussion to clarify an issue. The most important issue he raises is in claiming that the energy input to PV production should be reduced to one-third, on he grounds that it is electricity and PV produces electricity. In a world where all electricity came from PV farms it would make sense to put the value of the electricity input into the denominator of an EROI, but in the presenter world the energy going into production is mostly coal.
Endnote: This book was only available online at the University of California. Especially this book. Microchips, motherboards, and computers will be among the first casualties of declining fossil fuels, because they have the most complex supply chains with many single points of failure, dependence on rare metals, and so on see Peak Resources and the Preservation of Knowledge for details.
Real life has many factors that they are not accounted in organized studies in labs, universities with particular technologies and plants in perfect irradiation places. Energy payback of roof mounted photovoltaic cells. The Env. Bullis, K. Self-Cleaning Solar Panels A technology intended for Mars missions may find use on solar installations in the deserts on Earth.
MIT Technology Review. Colthorpe, Andy. Fthenakis, V. Life cycle inventories and life cycle assessment of photovoltaic systems. Accessed 19 Sep Neubacher, A. January 18, Der Spiegel. Solar Dreams, Spanish Realities. Parnell, John. Spanish government facing court action over cuts to solar support. Raugei M.
A Case Study. Data sources for Energy Generated and Energy Invested slide 10, How monetary costs were converted to energy units. Slide 12, How the embodied energy costs and boundaries were determined Slides 17, and much more. Soble, J. March 3, New York Times. Spanish solar energy: A model for the future? I find it rather unfortunate that my personal comments to Ms. As to Mr. However, the main issue there is, again, that of a loose definition of goal and scope.
In fact, by reading through his long post, it appears that Mr. There are many things I could say, but mostly hooray to Alice for bringing this up again in her marvelous fashion! And to Pedro for his exhaustive replies, many of which show how conservative our initial assessments were. Of course our analyses were for one country at one time. OK lets see such an empirical study done elsewhere and with boundaries that include ALL the necessary inputs. The reader should know that both Weissbach and Graham Palmer have published studies that are comprehensive and give results similar to ours. One thing I find amazing is that no one mentions the sensitivity analysis Pedro and I did in chapter 7.
This covers the special effects of the Spanish situation, weighting electricity vs fossil energy, removing financial services from the assessment or considering an energy assessment of labor.
Nuria Masso Ortigosa
There are other sensitivity analyses here and there in the book. Why in the world do people criticize us for things we had already examined and published the effect of? Did they read the book? The boundaries issue remains critical and I for one will not believe any EROI that does not have something like as thorough as we have attempted in our book. All that we do is enormously subsidized by fossil fuels, and we need to understand that better. I hope that we will someday have abetter estimate of the energy cost of indirect costs, business expenses, roads etc.
In the s we had some fair idea of the energy costs of all kinds of goods and services in society due to the wonderful work of Bullard, Hannon and Herendeen using detailed I-O tables and good government data, with uncertainty analysis. Services were quite energy intensive, although not as much per dollar as most goods. Now there are no such analyses and government energy use data sources degrade year by year. So we used and corrected these old values and compared and corrected them against what we could come up with for these issues today.
All explained in the book. Most of the uncertainties in EROI are greatly reduced when goals and boundaries are consistent, when an explicit methodology is used e. Murphy et al. If you want to moan and groan about solar EROI, then you might consider at least one more piece of the puzzle…. It won't pay energetically to pump it out of the ground or squeeze it out of tar sands. Our children's children will have to bring it up from below using old prairie windmills I suppose. Basle, December. Stress testing principles.
Minimum capital requirements for Market Risk. Fundamental review of the trading book: A revised market risk measure. Basle, October. Fundamental review of the trading book. Basel III: A global regulatory framework for more resilient banks and banking systems. Revised edition.
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Seven proofs for the subadditivity of Expected Shortfall. Dependence Modeling, 3 1 , Aggregation-robustness and model uncertainty of regulatory risk measures. Finance and Stochastics, 19 4 , Statistics and quantitative risk management for banking and insurance. Annual Review of Statistics and its Applications, 1 1 , pp. An academic response to Basle 3. Risks, 2 1 , Emmer, S. What is the best risk measure in practice? A comparison of standard measures. Journal of Risk, 18 2 , Feng, M. Coherent distortion risk measures in portfolio selection.
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