At that same time Libnah also rebelled. His son Ahaziah replaced him as king. His mother was Athaliah, the granddaughter of King Omri of Israel. Lord, You grant blessings on Your terms and in Your time, and You often do so through Your human servants. May I never be confused that Your gifts, poured out through me, are for my direct or indirect financial or other benefit. Being used as Your instrument of blessing is more than enough. Your power is greater that that of armies, and those who refuse to trust You are doomed to miss out on Your blessings.
May I never doubt that You are the omnipotent God and never question anything that You say. Your knowledge is perfect, and though You know the evil men plan in their hearts, Your perfecting timing means that sometimes You respond and sometimes not. May I never question Your perfect knowledge and wisdom even when I do not like or understand what is happening. Naaman, a Syrian general, had a skin disease and a captured Israelite servant girl told his wife that he could be healed by a prophet who lived in Samaria.
Naaman told the king who wrote a letter to the king of Israel and Naaman headed off along with valuable gifts. When he presented the simple letter to the king of Israel, which only said here is Naaman for you to cure of his skin disease, the king tore his clothes in the expectation that Syria was picking a fight. Elisha heard that the king of Israel was in mourning over the letter and sent word to have Naaman sent to him.
Naaman was angered at the apparent disrespect and dismissed the instructions but when he turned away in anger to return home his servants persuaded him to reconsider. Naaman did so and was healed. Naaman asked to take a load of dirt home so he could only make offerings to the God of Israel.
He also asked for forgiveness that the king of Syria would require his company when he went to worship their false god and Elisha told him to go in peace. The student prophets asked to build a larger meeting place and Elisha agreed. When they began felling trees one of the ax heads fell into the water. The prophet informed Elisha that it was a borrowed tool and pointed to where it fell. Elisha tossed a branch in that location and the ax head floated to the surface where it was retrieved. Syria was at war with Israel but every time they planned a place of ambush or attack Elisha warned the king of Israel.
At first the Syrians thought they had a traitor but their spies explained that it was Elisha. He then led them, unknown to them, to Samaria where the King of Israel waited. The King of Israel wanted to kill them but Elisha reminded him that he had nothing to do their capture so he had nothing to say about their treatment. Elisha instead instructed that they be given water and a feast and sent home. They did so and after they returned to Syria no raiding parties were sent for a long time. King Ben Hadad of Syria some time later laid siege to Samaria for so long that the people were so desperate for food that some actually killed and ate a child.
The king was angry and blamed Elisha and set out to kill him. When they arrived in the Syrian camp they found it abandoned. The Lord God had caused them to hear the sound of chariots and they thought the Samarians had hired Egyptians and Hittites to attack them. There was food enough for an army, so they ate, then decided to tell the others.
The king sent two horsemen to check on the Syrians and they found nothing but discarded supplies as the Syrians fled in terror. The people stormed out of through the city gate, trampling to death the soldier who had doubted Elisha, thus fulfilling the prophesy of abundant food and nothing for him. Elisha warned the Shunnamite woman to take her son to another region as a famine was coming.
She went to the land of the Philistines and when she returned she petitioned the king for the return of her property. Elisha traveled to Damascus, in Syria, when the king was ill. The king requested an oracle from a prophet and his assistant found Elisha. Hazael learned that the king would survive the illness but would still die.
Hazael gave the king the news of his recovery then smothered him to death in his sick bed and took over as king of Syria. The Edomites rebelled and when Joram, king of Israel, went to challenge them he was overwhelmingly defeated. Naaman was apparently an intelligent, teachable, man. The Lord God continued to use Elisha to bless the faithfulness of the Shunnamite widow and her son. Why would the kings have attacked Syria without first consulting Elisha? The Lord God used many people to teach Naaman and the enemy tried to interfere, via the king of Syria's careless letter, and Elisha's selfish student.
The Syrians, who worshiped false gods, were used by the Lord God to provide for the Samarians. Elisha, through God, knew what Hazael would do but he was not empowered by God to stop him as the people of Israel and Judah were constantly rebellious. When have you been blessed because you were teachable? When have you experienced or observed a situation where the Lord God was either not consulted or doubted and then blamed for bad circumstances? When have you experienced or observed the Lord God returning to bless again someone whom He had previously blessed?
Today I will accept the challenge of the Holy Spirit to trust Him and be led to where He desires to bless me with healing. I will praise the Lord for His amazing provision, be it past or present, and I will testify to His faithfulness to a fellow believer as an encouragement to them. I will also ask a fellow believer to pray in-agreement that I recognize the leadership of the Lord for my life.
I will cut off every last male belonging to Ahab in Israel, including even the weak and incapacitated. Why did this madman visit you? You know what kind of man he is and the kinds of things he says. Tell us what he said. Now King Ahaziah of Judah had come down to visit Joram. Follow me. The one who drives the lead chariot drives like Jehu son of Nimshi; he drives recklessly. They met up with him in the plot of land that had once belonged to Naboth of Jezreel.
The arrow went through his heart and he fell to his knees in his chariot. He fled to Megiddo and died there. When Jezebel heard the news, she put on some eye liner, fixed up her hair, and leaned out the window. People will not be able to even recognize her. How can we? Whatever you say, we will do. We will not make anyone king. Do what you consider proper.
They put their heads in baskets and sent them to him in Jezreel. I conspired against my master and killed him. But who struck down all of these men? The Lord had done what he announced through his servant Elijah. He left no survivors. None of them must be absent, for I am offering a great sacrifice to Baal. Any of them who fail to appear will lose their lives. They arrived at the temple of Baal and filled it up from end to end. Now Jehu had stationed eighty men outside. Then they entered the inner sanctuary of the temple of Baal.
Therefore four generations of your descendants will rule over Israel. He did not repudiate the sins which Jeroboam had encouraged Israel to commit. Hazael attacked their eastern border. His son Jehoahaz replaced him as king. She hid him and his nurse in the room where the bed covers were stored. So he was hidden from Athaliah and escaped execution.
One third of the unit that is on duty during the Sabbath will guard the royal palace. Still another third of you will be stationed at the gate behind the royal guard. You will take turns guarding the palace. Each of you must hold his weapon in his hand. Whoever approaches your ranks must be killed.
You must accompany the king wherever he goes. Each of them took his men, those who were on duty during the Sabbath as well as those who were off duty on the Sabbath, and reported to Jehoiada the priest. They lined up from the south side of the temple to the north side and stood near the altar and the temple, surrounding the king.
They proclaimed him king and poured olive oil on his head. The officers stood beside the king with their trumpets and all the people of the land were celebrating and blowing trumpets. Put the sword to anyone who follows her. There she was executed. They smashed its altars and idols to bits. They killed Mattan the priest of Baal in front of the altar.
They entered the royal palace through the Gate of the Royal Bodyguard, and the king sat down on the royal throne. His mother was Zibiah, who was from Beer Sheba. Now, take no more silver from your treasurers unless you intend to use it to repair the damage. Hazael then decided to attack Jerusalem. He sent it all to King Hazael of Syria, who then withdrew from Jerusalem.
He was buried with his ancestors in the city of David. His son Amaziah replaced him as king. He reigned in Samaria for seventeen years. He continued in the sinful ways of Jeroboam son of Nebat who had encouraged Israel to sin; he did not repudiate those sins. The Israelites once more lived in security. There was even an Asherah pole standing in Samaria. The king of Syria had destroyed his troops and trampled on them like dust. His son Joash replaced him as king. He reigned in Samaria for sixteen years. He did not repudiate the sinful ways of Jeroboam son of Nebat who encouraged Israel to sin; he continued in those sins.
Joash was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel. King Joash of Israel went down to visit him. The chariot and horsemen of Israel! You will annihilate Syria in Aphek! But now, you will defeat Syria only three times. Moabite raiding parties invaded the land at the beginning of the year.
He extended his favor to them because of the promise he had made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He has been unwilling to destroy them or remove them from his presence to this very day. Joash defeated him three times and recovered the Israelite cities. Lord, Your prophesies always come true, even though fallen man makes things messier than they need to be. May I trust You and not try to rush things that You have ordained. You use the available tools to fulfill Your prophesy and the occasional willing leader to purge the land of evil.
May I be more than available, and more than occasionally willing, but rather strive to be always-available and always-willing. Partial faithfulness to You results in partial blessings from You. May I mature day by day so that I draw ever closer and more obedient to You. Elisha sent one of his young student prophets to Jehu with instructions to privately anoint him with oil and inform him that he would become king of Israel in place of Joram, a descendant of Ahab.
The young prophet did as he was told. Jehu tried to pretend with his nearby friends that the young prophet said nothing worth repeating but they chided him until he shared and then they laid down their jackets and celebrated as if he was already king. Jehu immediately began a conspiracy to kill Joram. Jehu marched to Jezreel where king Joram of Israel was recovering from his battle injuries and king Ahaziah of Judah was visiting him. When Jehu refused to reply to the two messengers he sent, and they were informed that the chariot driver drove wildly in the style of Jehu, Joram and Ahaziah rode out to meet him.
Jehu murdered Joram and then chased and murdered Ahaziah as well. Jehu then went into Jezreel and was challenged by Jezebel. He challenged her eunuchs to prove their loyalty to him as their new king and they threw her out the window. She died and was devoured by dogs as had been prophesied. Jehu convinced the frightened leaders in the home town of Ahab to kill his sons, then he killed the rest of his family and associates.
He also killed forty-two of the relatives of Ahaziah. Jehu then tricked the priest of Baal into their temple and had them all killed, he destroyed their temple, and their idols and altars. Jehu did not destroy the sacred cows and therefore was only partially obedient to the Lord God. He was promised only four generations of descendants as kings.
Athaliah, the mother of Ahaziah conspired to destroy the rest of the family line after his death, but his sister hid his son Joash. The priest Jehoiada gathered warriors to protect Joash and then crowned him king of Judah. They executed Athaliah, and Mattan the priest of Baal, and destroyed the temples and artifacts of the worship of the false god of Baal. He commanded that the temple silver be used to repair the temple but the priests failed to get the job done and some time later he challenged Jehoiada the high priest to get the job done, so they hired contractors and the work was immediately begun.
Jehoahaz was disobedient to the Lord God so the Syrians were allowed to destroy their army and oppress them for a time. Jehoahaz cried out to the Lord and He broke the hold of the Syrians. There is no explanation given as to why each translation would not choose one or the other in order to avoid confusion. Jehu used clever strategy to fulfill part of the prophesy of the Lord God, to purge the land of the descendants of disobedient kings, and to purge the places of worship of Baal.
It was a form of warfare, just as was the original taking of the Promised Land, which made the strategy and violence acceptable before the Lord. Does it not seem that the arrogance of Jezebel contributed to her death? Rather than welcome Jehu and attempt an alliance she insulted him. Why would Jehu not get rid of the golden calves at the same time he was getting rid of the Baal worship? Why would the priests have failed to make repairs to the temple? The prophet had not instructed Jehu to kill either of the kings, though when He sent the prophesy to Jehu via the prophet the Lord God surely knew that he was not a mature or patient man.
The Lord God used the aunt of young Joash to keep him alive, then the priest and many soldiers to protect him as they elevated him to king of Judah. This was a pattern of God, choosing to work through several faithful and willing people. When have you experienced or observed someone who believed they were receiving a promotion and either tried to rush the process or began to act as if they had already been promoted?
When have you observed leaders dealing with one obvious problem but leaving another equally-obvious problem unaddressed? When have you experienced or observed a situation where the resources to do a good work were available but were hoarded rather than used for the intended purpose? Today I will ask a fellow believer to pray in-agreement, and be my accountability-partner so that I do not get out ahead of the Lord and that I am careful to use my new authority to meet my responsibilities with wisdom from Him. I will celebrate the work of the Holy Spirit in my life, in removing one idol, and I will partner with Him to remove the one that I previously ignored, missed, or have tolerated.
It may be too much attention focused on a mere human celebrity, displacing the Lord God. He reigned for forty years in Jerusalem. Be quick about it! They went through this routine every day and collected a large amount of silver. The king listened to their advice. Because of this sinful activity, God was angry with Judah and Jerusalem. They warned the people, but they would not pay attention.
You will not be prosperous! Because you have rejected the Lord, he has rejected you! They wiped out all the leaders of the people and sent all the plunder they gathered to the king of Damascus. The Syrians gave Joash what he deserved. His servants plotted against him because of what he had done to the son of Jehoiada the priest. They murdered him on his bed. Thus he died and was buried in the City of David, but not in the tombs of the kings.
His mother was Jehoaddan, who was from Jerusalem. He followed the example of his father Joash. A man must be put to death only for his own sin. Gloat over your success, but stay in your palace. Why bring calamity on yourself? Why bring down yourself and Judah along with you? He attacked Jerusalem and broke down the wall of Jerusalem from the Gate of Ephraim to the Corner Gate — a distance of about six hundred feet. Then he went back to Samaria. His son Jeroboam replaced him as king. But they sent assassins after him and they killed him there. A man must be executed only for his own sin.
He counted those twenty years old and up and discovered there were , young men of fighting age equipped with spears and shields. God is capable of helping or defeating. They were very angry at Judah and returned home incensed. They took them to the top of a cliff and threw them over. All the captives fell to their death. They killed 3, people and carried off a large amount of plunder.
He bowed down before them and offered them sacrifices. Stop prophesying or else you will be killed! He broke down the wall of Jerusalem from the Gate of Ephraim to the Corner Gate — a distance of about six hundred feet. Lord, given the clear history of failure from rebellion king after king still chose rebellion against You and brought trouble to the people. May I take care not to drift into rebellion.
Joash was only seven years old so Jehoiada assisted him greatly in purging the land of false idols. When Jehoiada died Joash listened to the bad counsel of members of his court and turned-away from the Lord God. As he died Zechariah asked the Lord God to take notice and punish Joash. God empowered the weaker Syrians to overwhelm the army of Judah and Joash was badly injured. Joash was murdered in his bed for killing Zechariah.
He was not buried in the royal tombs. Amaziah began his time as king in loyalty to the Lord God but after the Lord gave him victory over the Edomites he brought home their false idols and worshiped them. When a prophet of God challenged him he was threatened with execution, so the prophet did not trouble him further, other than to inform him that God had decided to end his reign and his life badly. Amaziah became king of Judah and led a very successful battle against the Edomites and then he challenged King Joash of Israel.
Joash warned him to not be too bold after only one victory but Amaziah continued to threaten them so Israel attacked and defeated Judah. He was captured, and the walls of Jerusalem were destroyed. He was in captivity many years and then assassinated. The pattern of blessed loyalty to the Lord God versus troubles for rebellion continued for the kings and the people of Israel and Judah. Why would the kings, sons of blessed kings, choose the path of rebellion and trouble rather than that of faithfulness and blessing? The prophets had a tough time of things, sometimes kings and other leaders listened, and sometimes they were ignored — and even killed — in their service to the Lord.
Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to you someone who is being faithful to the Lord and who faces challenges as a result. Today I will diligently pray for, and as is appropriate, otherwise assist the one to whom the Lord God directs my attention. They may be domestic or foreign missionaries, leaders or members in a local fellowship, or activists within the larger community of faith. He traveled to Joppa and found a merchant ship heading to Tarshish. So he paid the fare and went aboard it to go with them to Tarshish far away from the Lord.
Such a violent tempest arose on the sea that the ship threatened to break up! Jonah, meanwhile, had gone down into the hold below deck, had lain down, and was sound asleep. Get up! Cry out to your god! Perhaps your god might take notice of us so that we might not die! Where do you come from? And who are your people? And I worship the Lord, the God of heaven, who made the sea and the dry land.
After all, you, Lord, have done just as you pleased. Since you have now demanded that I can never cite your words in these comboxes, there is no reason to reply to you at all, since any debates I have are always made public on my blog, for teaching purposes. Ask your fans what they think of these posts. Superstitious as it is and potentially dangerous at least the JWs keep their medical taboos in house blood with erythrocytes.
But no, the Catholics have to oppose research that may help others outside their cult. In the US they might…not here in the UK. Because of restriction on effective treatment means the tossers take up time and space on a hospital system that is already struggling. In some cases demanding a more expensive, but less effective alternative. Remember, the NHS is free at the point delivery based on clinical need, not ability to pay.
In the US, by law, a citizen cannot be denied medical care for lack of ability to pay if it is through the emergency department or pregnancy related. As a result hospital emergency departments are now being used heavily for ear aches, upset tummies, and, well, you would not believe what I see. We had a twenty something male literally come in to emergency because of, wait for it, a hang nail. Unlike private physician offices which are appointment based, emergency departments must function on need first, not the time you arrived. Couple that with the fact that emergency department medicine is the most expensive treatment on the planet the diagnostic infrastructure found in emergency departments is not cheap to maintain and acquire and yes, resources are going to be taxing.
And that affects everyone. Damn near every non US tourist that comes to our ER showers compliments about our care and professionalism saying they experience nothing like it with the NHS or comparitives. I know there is surely good care to be found in the NHS, just offering my experience. Unless the citizenry is educated and not lazy of mind, any solution currently offered will be a band aid to the underlying problem of a selfish attitude about what is reasonable in medical delivery.
Mike Edit done. What exists in the US is a essentially a class system of medical delivery. I said earlier that ER and pregnancy patients cannot be denied care because of finances. As a result we have public health systems in place for non invasive care often free. Additionally there are pay as you can, or not at all, clinics available, often funded by government grants and private donations.
We have one locally for the very poor. Not all communities are as lucky though. We have a small population of chronic inebriates who used to come to the ER every night. After studying how the hospital paid out for non emergency care you know what our town did? We built a multi million dollar housing complex that one qualifies for and despite the cost, it was far cheaper than seeing those people in the ER.
That people are bankrupted, though, for medicine is not becoming of a civilization. Medicare for all Medicare is the federal system for seniors and the disabled seems to be the latest effort to expand medicine to all. Private is available here too. And we have a problem with health tourists using and abusing the NHS. Yes, the issue of US healthcare costs is heavily studied with competent journal publications everywhere. The driving economic factors always include the basics: labor and goods costs. The US delivery cost, however, by twice, is set apart from the other nine top global economies while, alarmingly, providing statistically poorer health results indicators.
These are comparable healthcare infrastructures among the economies doctor to support staff ratios, etc. Why is it generally twice as costly in the US? DSHS documents? Well, decided to delete my reply. Not satisfied with it. This is a complex discussion for a combox. Is healthcare a right or a privilege? Republicans believe the market is the solution and folks like Bernie Sanders think the government is best placed to solve it. One sub-infallible Catholic tribunal at one point of our history, got science wrong while a pious Catholic who was wrongly persecuted: Galileo, got some major things right, but also other things wrong, and another Catholic, Bellarmine, had the more modern, accurate understanding of scientific method.
Big wow. We would expect to see this. But such things are clearly beyond your capacity to understand, in the blindness of your bigotry. Certain Christians, including some Catholics, were scientists but the Church as an institution had zip point shit to do with modern science. We already know that. Europeans who happened to be Christian largely produced modern science. Yes, Copernicus was a Catholic. Maybe he was also a knitter. Maybe he drank wine. Maybe he beat his wife. Show us the cause and effect between any of these and his science. I agree. And since your claim is simply that many European scientists happened to be Christian, your claim is unimportant.
As far as I am aware Aristarchus was neither Christian or a member of the Catholic church. So his writings on scientific method include? Show me a single scientist of those known to have revolutionized knowledge who were supported, rather than persecuted, by the catholic church. His crimes: claiming the Sun was a star and that there were an infinite number of solar systems inhabited by intelligent life. The Roman Inquisition issued a sentence of death. His ashes were dumped into the Tiber river.
All of his works were placed on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum in I think it is basically that heretics were kicked out of Catholicism and the state authorities dealt with them. The Spanish Inquisition was more about outing those who pretended to convert from Islam or Judaism in order to avoid the wrath of the Church.
The Church did all the persecuting in that instance. The Church and the state, aka monarchy, were bedfellows and as guilty as each other. You can reason why theists want to distance themselves as best as possible in this day and age though. Nobody will read your stuff, so you come here to stir shit in the hopes some of us will follow you back. On the other hand, many great early scientists also Christians were obsessed with astrology, including Galileo, Kepler, and Tycho Brahe, while Isaac Newton an Arian was fascinated with alchemy:.
When modern science did get off the ground, of course it was Christianity that was overwhelmingly in the forefront of that:. But flail away in the face of facts if you must. Wait, what? These are not historically controversial ideas. The Terror is aptly named also the name of a phenomenal book by Dan Simmons, but I digress , and unfortunately even Enlightenment-inspired ends were used to justify atrocious means in revolutionary France.
Although Enlightenment ideas on this side of the Atlantic gave us reasonably solid republic government intended to protect individual liberties, subject, alas, to the messy vagaries of politics and the human condition. Furthermore, I agree that Soviet and Communist Chinese treatment of dissenters—political, religious, intellectual, etc. Speaking for myself, I would no more want to live under an officially atheist government than under an officially Baptist government. Religion ruled through that age, and continue to do so moving the levers of government, as they did through the Dark age.
The Enlightenment is generally considered to have ended in you get bonus points if you know what else happened that year. His participation in the collection of taxes did not help him when the Reign of Terror began in France, as taxes and lack of government reform were the primary motivators of the French Revolution. So from the people who charged them with crimes to the judicial system that convicted them down to the executioner himself, none of those people were Christian? They were all Enlightenment-ists? That surprises me. We can always count on you to bring up the mindless talking points.
I knew there was a reason we kept you as court jester! It was a historical period or a way of thinking at a certain time. People murder! His partner for bosonic work, Satyendra Bose, a Hindu, etc. We hear this all the time — a lot of science was done in the last few centuries in Europe…Europe was almost completely Christian…thus we have to thank Christianity for science. If Europe at the time was mostly a different religion…the science would still have come at roughly the same time…. It need not be pointed out that Copernicus was the key figure who changed that, and he was a Catholic cleric, and his work was enthusiastically supported by the pope of the time and the Church though later with Galileo there were some silly things said.
In the 14th century, bishop Nicole Oresme [c. By , the accuracy of observations by the Vienna school of astronomy, of which Peuerbach and Regiomontanus were members, was high enough to make the eventual development of heliocentrism inevitable, and indeed it is possible that Regiomontanus did arrive at an explicit theory of heliocentrism before his death in , some 30 years before Copernicus.
Sorry, is this intended for me? You being the only one here who shows sufficient understanding of the actual history of science, and the slightest bit of acknowledgment of the crucial, central role that Christianity played in it. And I think plenty of the other folks here have quite a lot of understanding, but different perspectives and personalities. You hate the idea that the despised atheists may know and understand things possibly even better than you.
It need not be pointed out that Copernicus was the key figure who changed that, and he was a Catholic cleric. Copernicus sat on his findings for thirty years and only published when he was on his deathbed out of fear of the Catholic Church. Science fell so far behind due to the Catholic Church that when they got ancient Greek writings from more than a thousand years earlier, it was a great advancement to them. Wherefore I took the trouble to reread all the books by philosophers which I could get hold of, to see if any of them even supposed that the movements of the spheres of the world were different from those laid down by those who taught mathematics in the schools.
And as a matter of fact, I found first in Cicero that Nicetas thought that the Earth moved. And afterwards I found in Plutarch that there were some others of the same opinion: I shall copy out his words here, so that they may be known to all:. Some think that the Earth is at rest; but Philolaus the Pythagorean says that it moves around the fire with an obliquely circular motion, like the sun and moon. Herakleides of Pontus and Ekphantus the Pythagorean do not give the Earth any movement of locomotion, but rather a limited movement of rising and setting around its centre, like a wheel.
Therefore I also, having found occasion, began to meditate upon the mobility of the Earth. And although the opinion seemed absurd, nevertheless because I knew that others before me had been granted the liberty of constructing whatever circles they pleased in order to demonstrate astral pheonmena, I thought that I too would be readily permitted to test whether or not, by the laying down that the Earth had some movement, demonstrations less shaky than those of my predecessors could be found for the revolutions of the celestial spheres.
And so, having laid down the movements which I attribute to the Earth farther on in the work, I finally discovered by the help of long and numerous observations that if the movements of the other wandering stars are correlated with the circular movement of the Earth, and if the movements are computed in accordance with the revolution of each planet, not only do all their phenomena follow from that but also this correlation binds together so closely the order and magnitudes of all the planets and of their spheres or orbital circles and the heavens themselves that nothing can be shifted around in any part of them without disrupting the remaining parts and the universe as a whole.
The Index Librorum Prohibitorum was not completely dismantled until According to Sir Isaac Newton, Jesus should have arrived by now. Sir Isaac Newton was an idiot, if he thought that he could second guess what God is going to do. But God did give us clues. Christ Jesus return will be before AD. As I see it the enlightenment took some of the best morality that was disseminated by Christianity and got rid if the garbage.
To my knowledge there is not one positive teaching or philosophy in Christianity that is original to it or that is necessary for it to exist. One certainly has to ignore or creatively rationalize large parts of the Bible to actually act the way Christians claim that they should. When the rubber meets the road they act no differently than anyone else. I work as a private investigator, I talked to my partner last night after a surveillance on the wife of my client where she was found to be cheating. She enlisted the help of her friend to lie, and both her and the friend are very active in their church.
The husband was just astounded at my findings and their hypocrisy. My partner related a story of one he did were the spouse would face time when she was out of town at bedtime with the kids for prayer time, she did this while in the house of her boyfriend. I had to tell my client that in my professional experience whether someone is a Christian or not is meaningless as to behavior and if he wants to get to the truth he needs to let go of that notion. Sure the theists can say that belief in God helps them realize right from wrong, but that knife cuts both ways and that is rarely, if ever, acknowledged.
So is it just your particular divine conceptions that are not imaginary, or are all divine conceptions allowed onto the table? Creationists are deniers of reality…you do realize they have the same imaginary friend as you do and the book backs them up as much as it does you…that is, not at all.
I of course accept all conceptions of the divine, and accept all gods. You are also a denier of reality, like your buddies the creationists, the holocaust deniers, climate science deniers and racists if you pretend that religion poisons everything or pretend that billions of people are just having imaginary friends. Grow the fk up darling. The Abrahamic religions are the basis for your projected bedfellows, regardless of mosque, synagogue or kirk.
Xianity laughs at the number of flavours Baskin Robbins has. Each claims to be the real thing, all the tens of thousands of others are wrong. An all powerful creator would obviously have made a text clearly and concisely laying it out plainly for all to see. What we have is none of that. Popular mythology offering spiritual salvation is what it is. Xianity just happened to gain power enough to burn dissenters and commit genocide globally while converting the survivors.
Regardless, this deity raped a girl to produce our saviour from our deity given sinful nature. Brilliant plan there Yahweh. Why should I need someone else to tell me what the holey books say? I read the xian version. Or the time really if not for the harm it does to society. I wonder how many civil authorities were complicit and not just there. I was talking about scholarly literature. There seems to be four types of studies of the historical Jesus but only three of them actually exist:. A composite of studies that assume there was a historical Jesus.
A book, study, or paper that tries to prove there was a historical Jesus but relies on hypothetical evidence. A book, study, or paper that tries to prove there was a historical Jesus that relies on actual evidence. You have been touting them as if you knew they had something. I know what the scholars say. Most of them probably believe it. Most of them have never considered otherwise.
- Error during search of Bible, Revised Standard Version.
- The Four Quartets.
- Some Advice on Same-Sex Marriage for US Church Leaders From a Canadian;
- Doctors Office Sex Volume One.
I do know a reasonable amount but importantly know that they are unimporrssed with crankery as you have been advancing. But the scholars still have never proven the existence of a historical Jesus based on the evidence and the methodology of historians. Their main job is to write papers. Yet none has ever done a paper that establishes that Jesus was an actual historical figure. That should be shocking to you. No one has managed to convince the scholars outside the margins, as with any fringe ideas that the existence of the church organisation and the gospels can be accounted for by a mythical Christ.
No one has managed to convince the scholars outside the margins, as with any fringe ideas that the existence of the church organisation and the gospels Old Testament can be accounted for by a mythical Christ Moses. Thompson argued that the Old Testament fathers were invented from the literature from other places in the region. Josephus tells us that the first century Jews had a prophecy that the Messiah was coming soon.
They started the war with Rome based on the belief that the Messiah would rise up and take over the world. Josephus told Vespasian when he was captured that he realized that the prophecy was not about someone born there, only that they would come out of Judea to become the ruler of the world. Vespasian did become the emperor shortly after, the survivor of the Year of Four Emperors.
Others assumed it was basically a true story but corrected some things and supplemented it. The Luddites formed believing Ned Ludd was real. Cargo Cults sprang up in the South Pacific who thought John Frum was a god, as he could talk into a stick and have cargo delivered from the sky. Once the Gospel of Mark was written, it is exactly the same whether it is mostly fictional with just a kernel about a man from Galilee or completely fictional. The early epistles were just getting their information from the Old Testament and other Hebrew writings.
The scholars are not convinced by such arguments — that is the material point. Take it up with the scholars. Mike Licona is one scholar who found out the hard way that these contracts have teeth. Most have never considered the question. Nearly every one of them came to believe when they were children and were strong believers at least until they were deep into schooling. Very few came to the idea that Jesus existed through intellectual consideration. We have Joseph Smith a real person founding Mormonism, but then we have Moses quite possibly not a real person founding Judaism.
There are examples in both camps, so how did you reach your conclusion? The Gospels can easily be fiction, unless you want to argue for an historical Hercules. There is zip, zero, nada, in the Gospels, nor in the origination of the early Church that requires an historical Jesus. Not a single Church purportedly started by Jesus. Not a single writing.
Not a single reference. Well, the experts are not persuaded by such assertions, given that the gospels are not presented as myth or fantasy but as history. Not from me, I simply am not going to follow you into irrelevancies — I prefer to stay on topic. No dude the question of whether scholars accept that Jesus is purely mythical — you will need to work hard to demonstrate they do. THere are certainly qualified scholars who do. The interesting question right now is why you avoid answering anything at all.
Yet again, keep in mind that those experts can be biased. Do you think all of them had genuine origins? Or was every other religion in history based on myth? Anything ancient is going to have a big potpourri of legend, fiction, and some real history. Then what are your religious beliefs? I thought you were a Christian of sorts. Are you saying that Christianity has fuzzy, mythological origins as well? I am a Christian, but not in the sense of holding beliefs — I see the founding myths as true, but not literally for the most part.
So a myth can be true but not literally true? Tell me how that works. Of course! When those calcify into religions, you might eventually go to war over these beliefs. How very open-minded of you. Not many Christians are willing to admit that there may be other Gods out there who have walked the Earth before. Definitely crankery, as it has not persuaded the scholarly community.
If you have something to persuade them, publish and be famous! So lemme ask. Is it more crankery to believe a manGod might be a myth or to believe that God impregnated a virgin with himself to make himself a sacrifice to himself and that this is historically verifiable? You brought up totally unrelated ideas. Thomas Brodie or another ex-Catholic priest who had taught seminary where I first saw this pointed out. We actually have an immense amount of experience with religions making stuff up. The Jews believed that a Messiah would come.
In the middle of the first century, they began to believe the coming of the Messiah was imminent. It is why they got into a war with Rome and why they held out in the Jerusalem siege. Some groups came up with Old Testament passages to come up with additional beliefs about the Messiah. After the war, all that was left were a few writings. One writer wrote a story that the Messiah had come forty years before the end of the war but they killed him.
Some believed the story. It is all they had to go on. Everything proceeds from that point just the same whether there was a Jesus or not. But when you take a close look at the early epistles, they do not refer to a first century person. They only refer to him in terms of Old Testament passages.
Devils in the Details: The Return of the Gargoyle
They made him up from passages that were hopeful prophecies. Are you saying that since there is a Zoroastrianism, there must be a Zoroaster? Islam and Mohammed, Buddhism and Buddha, and so on. Legends pop up all the time. The telephone game, oral history, legendary accretion, and all that are well known problems. Yes, I hope that the mainstream NT community of scholars does exactly that. Have you read Bart Ehrman, who is said to make the best case for historicity? Perhaps you have read Maurice Casey? Richard Carrier? Thomas Brodie. Tom Harpur?
I mean, you want to appeal to the scholars but you seem to know fuck all about what they actually say. Indeed I have — great populariser and writer. Richard Carrier has failed to persuade me but more importantly has made no headway with the experts at all. In empirical disciplines such as science and history Nobel prizes in the former tend to be given for overthrowing previously held theories rather simply supporting them. There are disagreements on how good the evidence is but the consensus is that one can at best only assign a probability for the existence of such a person.
Why do theists like these guys lose their shit over this subject? Religiously motivated. So, we have to look outside the consensus there to see what the truth is. Is it just extreme cognitive dissonance on their part or something else? What happens to their world view if there is no certainty of an historical Jesus on which to build their Christ? Which means the authorities that they are relying on fail at least one test of good scholarship, they are not dispassionate.
Alan Beale's Core Vocabulary Compiled from 3 Small ESL Dictionaries (21877 Words)
Try to to explain being compassionate to these folks. And these guys fight tooth and nail against falsifiability. Sounds like a self-sealing argument to me. It might just as well be a way to attempt to salvage something.
I am looking for a particular song, how can I find it?
Hi epeeist. The best I can come up with from other sources without reading great big philosophy books is that it is connected to the idea that some facts are based on other facts. I wish you the best of luck. The discussions usually are highly philosophical, but they seem to always devolve into the theists not being able to define their terms very well, and then they get mad at the atheists for not just bowing to their poorly defined terms and concepts.
Sounds like what is happening to you too. The discussions usually are highly philosophical, but they seem to always devolve into the theists not being able to define their terms very well. I actually hate this stuff more than creationism in many ways. Not even what he means when he uses it. I asked Richard repeatedly but he provided none.
That could sum up many of my interactions with theists. He sounds like Luke. They are not as interested in supporting their position as much as they think if they destroy yours…they win by default. IMO that is why he expects you to jump through the hoops and will only show his hand when he thinks it will give him leverage. I gave up on secular outpost when they toLd me arguments were evidence. In which case there was some bad formulation going on.
Deductive arguments can be justification for the truth of propositions, but of course this relies on the premisses to those arguments being true…. I think it is a couple of words that sound good when linked together but whose meaning as a phrase demands strict definition by the person using it, otherwise it is just hand waving. This would appear to be epistemology, knowledge is inferential; we know that certain proposition are approximately true because we have justification for our belief that they are true.
This runs into infinite regress, which leads us to ask are there any facts which do not require justification, are there things which are simply brute. But he seems to be using the subject of morality. Asking us if there is a difference between:. It seems to be a fog salad, a reference to metaphysics, an allusion to Objective morality and a couple of scattered digs at atheists. I have asked him to define his terms.
This has nothing to do with metaphysics, it is a question on meta-ethics. Way outside of my experience, ideally you would need someone who is taking a Ph. There is a small chink in the way you have put it though in that it is the usual theist false dichotomy or fallacy of the complex question. The supposition would seem to be that everything is completely subjective or there is some kind of objective morality.
There is at least one other possibility, namely that there is inter-subjective or even universal agreement about something being wrong. If they want to claim this is brute fact then they need to justify why it is a brute fact. Great question. Good point — I agree that we need to distinguish Christ from Jesus.
So far, they are still very much in marginal territory. You get my standard spiel here, those who make an ontological commitment have the burden of proof. Those who make the claim that Jesus definitely did exist are making such a commitment as are those who make the claim that he definitely did not exist.
The level of burden is different for those who simply state that the arguments and evidence of either of the above groups do not stand up to scrutiny, they have the weaker burden of showing why this is. To account for them by other means is a more extraordinary claim that requires evidence. So far none has been produced sufficient to convince the experts, nor stand up to serious scrutiny.
I have a passing acquaintance with the history of the gents you mention particularly Frumm, as I have had some reasonable experience with people in cargo cults in PNG. Not sure of the relevance to crank ideas not persuading the experts. This would be a minimal, historical Jesus — a itinerant preacher from the apocalyptic tradition executed for sedition at the time of Passover by the Romans, no more than that. Crank ideas? Unlike Jesus of course…. Is it Robert M. A Black Madonna seems no less likely than the European Jesus portraits.
There is likely some influence, sure — like with all art, there is a network of influence — in this case via Hellenic mystery religions, which had their connections with Isis that sounds funny saying that word today , and directly through Roman-era Egypt from which lots of very cool artistic techniques, like egg tempura and icon-style portraiture were taken. It is like it is all art. The Gospel of Mark appears to draw from literature. The epistles are drawing from the Septuagint. They a priority hold that the resurrection is an historical fact by that alone.
You may be looking just at the USA — the figures you quote are not remotely accurate for Europe. Yeah, except the whole post is quotes of Biblical scholars. Common as muck. You may also wish to examine the situation of those who purport to be scholars claiming Jesus is fictional, such as the rabidly anti-religious activist dogmatic dude Richard Carrier.
I was referring to activist Richard Carrier. Oh please. Not everything Ehrman publishes is peer reviewed either. Quit hiding. This sounds like some veiled allusion to a compromised position, but I know of nothing like this about Carrier. No not at all — it was the counterpart to dismissing the views of NT scholars based on their outlook. Yes, and arguments to the contrary have not persuaded UFOlogy experts that we are not visited by creatures from other planets.
The opinions of most NT scholars were not arrived at by arguments. They came to their opinion as children so their opinion is not based on scholarship. You are taking the set of all people who came to believe Jesus was a historical first century person, then selecting the subset from that set who became scholars, then you refine the definition to those scholars employed at accredited institutions to eliminate scholars who no longer accept that.
Can you still not name a single scholar who can support the historical Jesus with a rational argument from true premises? UFOlogy is not an academic, scholarly discipline. New Testament studies quite distinct from theology is certainly a scholarly field.
My suggestion would be to explore some of the scholarly journals. Christ mythicism need not restrict itself to New Testament studies — there are many journals in ancient history the writers could try in putting their work through the rigours of scholarship. I believe I asked you for examples of support for the historicity of Jesus in journals, books, whatever. Did you reply? Those things are not part of theology — surely you would know that though?
You gave the impression of having read at least a little in that field? Now, how about agreeing with me for a change? Why is admitting the obvious bias within this field a problem for you? The thing about the humanities…. In the sciences, data can be looked at and an accurate deduction can be made from the same set data, regardless of which expert picks it up, wherever. Science is empirical. The humanities are speculative. But even within humanities, history for example has a lot less inherent bias than theology.
It is difficult to come up with another scholarly field that assumes its primary focus is true but throws up their hands when it comes to showing it is true. One scholar, Bart Ehrman, has made an effort to do it and found that nobody else has ever bothered but his proof relies on hypothetical documents, like Q, M, and L which assumes they were about Jesus and not some other figure. The existence of Jesus has not been proved on a scholarly basis.
Therefore, it is an unscholarly opinion. It is inappropriate to tout the unscholarly opinions of scholars. You will need to account for the existence of many gospels, the Christian religion and other huge evidences for a historical bloke if you are going to get anywhere with your idea. So far, no one has convincingly accounted for the gospels and these other evidences for the bloke by demonstrating a fictional character is the trigger.
It is seen as farfetched by historians, since the evidence and argument is lacking. They start out as unbelievable and go down hill from there. That started out as peculiar readings of the Hebrew literature. Church history tells us that 50 or 60 years later, in a letter written to the Christians at Ephesus by the Christian martyr Ignatius, the name Onesimus appears again — this time as a highly-regarded bishop in the province of Asia. Where is your standing with Christ?
Do you realize that no matter your past - you are offered eternal life — equality with all mankind who also believe in the Name of Jesus Christ? So… Onesimus — a former slave leading the church of Asia? The letter to Philemon illustrates the power of forgiveness - this is the beauty of Christ — the beauty of the Bible — the glory of the Church — the story of grace and mercy.
What will you do with this story? Will you more than ponder the offer of Christ to forgive your sins and redeem you from a life of slavery to sin and create a life of freedom for you? Will you forgive everyone, no matter what? There are no distinctions in the Kingdom of God and no place for personal bias, either hidden or exposed. Do you fear God more than you fear man? If Christ is your Savior — If you truly understand how important it is to comprehend the Nature of God, you will fear God!
God holds solely within His hand the destiny of every person that has lived or will live. We all have been given a choice. Eternity with God or eternity apart from God? In the time our characters we will talk about today , lived - God loved His people, but they still had to obey His laws or face judgement from the Almighty. Who were these women? Simply put — they were two Hebrew midwives to whom the nation of Israel owes big debt of gratitude. And their example serves as a powerful testimony to all of us today. As years went by, however, this symbiotic relationship came to a screeching halt in the most cruel way.
When Joseph and his brothers all died, ending that generation — and the King of Egypt who was in power at the time knew nothing of Joseph and the wonderful things he had done for the people of Egypt in the past. He only saw the Israelites flourishing and was convinced something had to be done about that. Then they will escape from the country. They appointed brutal slave drivers over them, hoping to wear them down with crushing labor. They forced them to build the cities of Pithom and Rameses as supply centers for the king.
They were ruthless in all their demands. They allowed the boys to live, too. But you may let the girls live. When the King discovered a bunch of baby boys running around, he challenged the midwives as to their actions — the Hebrew midwives gave an answer — because they feared God more than King Pharaoh. How significant was it that the Hebrew Midwives feared God more than the King? These differences are indeed dramatic!
King P — Great political and military power. They simply feared God more than man. Besides, as midwives, Pharaoh gave the order to the wrong people! They were all about preserving life, not ending it. They gave their lives to make sure the babies were born! They were not going against their standards. What actually is the fear of God? A dread of His displeasure. Desire of His favour. Regard for His excellence. Submission to do His will. Gratitude for His benefits.
Conscientious obedience to His commands. Does your fear of God include these things? Knowledge of the Holy One results in good judgment. He teaches them his covenant. When we do, we are able to hear from Him more effectively. That Divine fear, like the space which the American settler burns around him as a defense against the prairie fire, clears a circle, within which we are absolutely safe….
There is no bravery equal to the bravery that is moral. Pharaoh may frown but his frowns will be unseen and un-regarded amid the light of an approving heaven! Do you fear God more than anything else? Does obedience to God at any cost mean more to you than anything else? Are you afraid of the consequences of doing the right thing?
Are you easily intimidated by people that would lead you away from God? One time many years ago, the king of Hungary found himself depressed and unhappy. He sent for his brother, a good-natured but rather indifferent prince. The king said to him, "I am a great sinner; I fear to meet God. This didn't help the king's disposition any. Though he was a believer, the king had gotten a glimpse of his guilt for the way he'd been living lately, and he seriously wanted help.
In those days it was customary if the executioner sounded a trumpet before a man's door at any hour, it was a signal that he was to be led to his execution. The king sent the executioner in the dead of night to sound the fateful blast at his brother's door. The prince realized with horror what was happening. Quickly dressing, he stepped to the door and was seized by the executioner, and dragged pale and trembling into the king's presence.
In an agony of terror he fell on his knees before his brother and begged to know how he had offended him. Are you a loyal person to your friends? Will you stand by them no matter what? Are you a loyal follower of Jesus Christ? Will you stand by Jesus no matter the situation? If we get out of the city before Absalom arrives, both we and the city of Jerusalem will be spared from disaster. He left no one behind except ten of his concubines to look after the palace. Go on back to King Absalom, for you are a guest in Israel, a foreigner in exile.
Just who was Ittai? Why did he come to Jerusalem? The very giant David had killed as a young boy. Even though Ittai was a fellow Gittite to the legend Goliath, he was barred from his country and on the road with a force of fellow mercenaries under his command. They came to Jerusalem with their families, basically on the run from their own country. Why come to Jerusalem? It is highly likely that Ittai and many of his fellow soldiers were friends of David that he had acquired when he was hiding from Saul many years before. The incredible gift of leadership and ethics given to David by God, obviously had a profound affect on Ittai and his countrymen.
Faithful Ittai wins the distinction for Most Loyal New Friend, encourages David, and secures the kickoff spot in our list of amazing, yet under-recognized biblical characters. Ittai was faced with a situation that could land himself, his family and fighting men and their families in a situation that could result in submission, slavery and even death.
Ittai was used to frontal attacks that he could see. Just how formidable of a foe was Absalom? He was incredibly handsome and charismatic — a Bible-Times Rockstar! He was flawless from head to foot. When he weighed it out, it came to five pounds! Absalom was a schmoozer! Instead, he took them by the hand and kissed them. He wanted to take Jerusalem because it was the capital city, full of government actions and businesses and culture.
Three probable explanations: 1. The rebellion was wide-spread and would not be suppressed easily. His loyalty extended as far as humanly possible. If your commander is God — then serve Him without reservation or condition. If your commander is God — then be faithful and loyal. If your commander is God — then follow Him until you die. In week one, The Miracle on 34th Street highlighted themes of faith and believing. When discovered at the workshop, the elves name him "Buddy" because he is wearing "Little Buddy Diapers", and he is adopted by Papa Elf.
Papa Elf raises the little one as an Elf and names him Buddy. As Buddy Will Farrell develops into a discouraged man, Papa Elf decides that it is time to tell Buddy the truth about where he came from. Buddy learns for the first time of his deceased Mother and living Father that is on the naughty list. Buddy sets off through the candy cane forest to New York City to find his family.
In the Big City, Buddy is able to track down his Father, Walter Hobbs James Caan who never knew he existed and is not happy to meet this quirky man that eagerly calls him Dad. Walter has a patient wife Mary Steenbergen and a son named Michael that come to accept Buddy as part of their family and force Walter to attempt a relationship with his long-lost son. He lands a job at a department store where he meets and falls for Jovie Zooey Deschaenel , who is working as an elf. Buddy loses this job when he calls out the fake and intoxicated store Santa and they get into a huge brawl.
Walter gives Buddy a job at his company where Buddy causes havoc for Walter and they have a falling out. Walter does not care about the quality of his books and only cares about making money. Buddy disrupts an important meeting between Walter and Miles Finch, a successful author who happens to be height challenged. Walter is infuriated and tells Buddy to get out of his life. Buddy is hurt and runs away. Papa Elf updates the audience with the rest of the story.
Everyone lives happily ever after and has a Merry Christmas. I want to ask you some very important questions this morning. Do you know Jesus, the baby born in the manger on Christmas Day? Do you know Him? How excited are you about knowing Him? John , 14, 18 - In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. No one has ever seen God. He has revealed God to us. The author pens these incredible words: What Child is this - Who laid to rest - On Mary's lap is sleeping? Whom Angels greet with anthems sweet, While shepherds watch are keeping?
This is incredible knowledge! I John - He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world. And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. And as a bonus, people all around, every year, celebrate His coming! Paul, while under house arrest in either Rome or Ephesus, wrote an incredibly encouraging letter to church in Philippi that he sent back with Epaphroditus after Epaphroditus delivered a monetary gift to Paul from the church.
The reason why Paul was excited? When Christ enters our life through trusting in Him alone for our salvation, we experience the same power that raised Him from the dead. Look with me at Ephesians ! Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. This Gift? By accepting His Gift of salvation, we too can experience a resurrection from death to life eternal.
Do you know Jesus? The gold standard of holiday movies. It was released in and bombed. So full of energy, so full of hope, so full of optimism! A rich, miserly, grouchy businessman in town, Mr. George leaves his beautiful family and his old house in a huff believing that all was lost and only thinking about what a disaster life was. Instead of jumping with the intent to end his life, George jumps in to save Clarence.
George is subsequently shocked and dismayed beyond words! One of the hardest things in life is to live in the present and simultaneously see a bigger picture. How many of us, often feel like our life is just one despair from another and we might even wish we never would have been born? Ecclesiastes Smoke, nothing but smoke.
The sun comes up and the sun goes down, then does it again, and again—the same old round.